Money Matters Episode 336- Why DEI Still Matters in 2025 | Cornelia Gamlem & Barbara Mitchell on Inclusion, Culture & Engagement

Money Matters Podcast Episode 336

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: [00:00:00] What if I told you that DEI isn't dead It's just been completely misunderstood and that the real key to employee engagement isn't perks or paychecks but inclusion today on Money Matters We're joined by workplace culture experts Cornelia Gambling and Barbara Mitchell co-authors of Essentials of Employee Engagement Which is a new ebook out and they also both of you have been on the show multiple times before so welcome back We're glad to have you back you both are here to challenge what you think you know about DEI and show how true engagement starts with making people feel heard trusted and connected to purpose Whether you're struggling with retention Morale are just trying to build a better team culture This conversation is packed with strategies that you can use today and stick around to the very end Cornelia and Barbara shear one powerful shift any leader can make this week to start re-engaging their team You don't want to miss this one Once again Cornelia Barbara thank you so [00:01:00] much for joining the show

Barbara: Thank you Chris Glad to be here

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: And again I mentioned you guys are are repeat guest here and it's rare that we have people back multiple times but I just love the space that you're working The hr uh we had you on for

Cornelia Gamlem: the big book of hr

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: big I knew it was a big book of hr I thought I was gonna say HR Bible cause it's some something along those lines And it was such a fantastic book and it's good to have both of you back on to get updated in this space as things change I know we're People are there's kind of a hybrid between people working remotely people in the office and we've talked about that in the past But I love this topic so let's let's just dive right into it Let's start with the basics What inspired you to write essentials of employee engagement and why now

Cornelia Gamlem: Well you know we we we are so passionate about The topic of engaging employees in the workplace And I think it often gets lost in so many of the conversations that people don't [00:02:00] understand what it is And you know you mentioned engagement sometimes and people think oh we've gotta throw some parties and we've gotta do what a colleague used to always call the feel good stuff And yeah that's those are all nice to have kinds of things but it goes much deeper than that doesn't it Barbara

Barbara: Absolutely We wanna really make people feel heard We wanna make them feel as if they are part of something that's bigger than they are cause we keep hearing this from employees They want to be part of something They don't just wanna go to work and get paid Yes they want those things They wanna get paid of course and have benefits and all the good stuff But what they really want is to be passionate about the work that they do and we think that talking about engagement is one way to do that Let people be heard and understood

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I love that And I know you know we're working in different Now there's there's people that are uh you know people still working in the [00:03:00] office and people working remotely or some kind of hybrid version of that And it's you know it's real easy to get isolated and off by yourself and and and not feel like you're you're part of a a bigger uh picture there So let's talk about now you you've written Extensively on HR and management in the past How does employee engagement connect with your past work Is this a natural Evolution or a shift in the focus

Barbara: Oh it's definitely part of the the whole uh model that we've been working in a long time Uh but yes I Think it's a different twist to it perhaps is that we're talking about it and as engaging employees not just working with people we want them to be just really really focused on the work that they're doing and enjoying the work that they're doing And wanting again as I said a moment ago wanting to be part of something that's bigger than they are And I think if you focus on those kind of uh of topics it's a little bit different from [00:04:00] just managing it's managing in a perhaps a little bit different way Cornelia you've got some golf

Cornelia Gamlem: Yeah I mean the other thing that I would add to that is you know you mentioned that the workplace is Changing Well the workforce is changing too as

Barbara: Yes

Cornelia Gamlem: are coming into the workplace and Not for them It's not the same model for the newer entrant They you know they were raised in a different time They have different expectations than perhaps their boomer grandparents did Or or or even their you know their Gen X parents did and It's very very important to them the type of an organization that they work for You know they wanna be committed to to the organization itself as well as the work that they're doing within the organization So you know if if if they go to work for someplace and there's a lot of bad press around it they're gonna leave They you know they they just don't wanna be part of that because reputation is so so very important to them

Barbara: We what we find [00:05:00] We find too too Chris is that people don't even join organizations if they don't feel committed to the organization They they do research extensive research before they actually make a commitment to join an organization So as an employer you may be missing out on on big time employee uh numbers Just because you are not treating people well in the first place and engaging them in the work that they wanna do So it's it's even that more even that more basic than even joining the organization They don't wanna join it unless they can be part of something

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: That that makes a lot of sense to me Uh for for us who've been in the work world for a very long time we think about it as a shift but there are people that are just now entering So the it's it's not a shift In fact they have these requirements for uh the types of organizations that they're even gonna join Right Um they may not even do you the courtesy of telling you [00:06:00] that they didn't uh that you you just may not know because they go out and research and and they just get taken out of the talent pool there So you're decreasing the the talent pool for sure Let's talk about because that's the the this uh new book uh new ebook um that we'll and we'll tell listeners later how they can get uh get a copy of this and and and be able to read it You make a strong case that inclusion is at the heart of employee engagement Can you break that down for us and explain why DEI is often misunderstood in this context

Cornelia Gamlem: Absolutely Um Inclusion is really making the people feel like they count in an organization and and it it's at the heart of an organization's culture Its practices and most importantly its values You know So if you if you're not if you don't value people you are off on the wrong track And and and it's good that That that lack of value is going to trickle [00:07:00] down you know throughout your organization and not just with your employees And I'll talk about that in a moment Um there has been a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication around DEI and I think a lot of it started a few years ago with that Supreme Court decision about affirmative action and college Admissions Well you know I I did a lot of work in affirmative action in the past goes on in an organization around affirmative action and what goes on in college admissions are too entirely different things Um so you know there there there was too much of a blending of that without separating it out and trying to understand it But I think it it went down a little bit deeper than that People suddenly started turning to DEI and saying it's bad it's evil it's discriminatory and it's None of those things if you really understand it Unfortunately people start to focus on one or two elements of diversity and and generally it's gonna [00:08:00] be race and and skin color So so they'll you know they're looking at that and not recognizing when we really talk about diversity There is so much more to it There are so many facets to it um that go on that go well beyond just what you look like You know it's where you were raised the kind of work you do you know so so with so many other things that that enter into it And organizations who have developed very sound DEI programs you know the past decades understand that and they recognize that and and they bring a lot of it in there but you know there's been too much bad press about it's discriminatory it it's it's showing unfair advantage to people that have been traditionally in underrepresented groups And that's that's really where the problem is is because you start eliminating some of that then you're at the point of saying well I don't care about the barriers to opportunity And and that's really what [00:09:00] has always been about It It it's just making sure that everybody has the same opportunity and different people need need different things But but what can happen in your organization if you start removing some of this and you and and this culture begins to emerge where people feel they can't speak out as Barbara was saying earlier they they can't really be part of it They're gonna start to leave As they leave you're gonna have turnover which has costs associated with it as they leave they're also gonna take a lot of knowledge that they gained in your organization and bring it elsewhere From a competitive point of view you are at a disadvantage um you're also letting very good resources walk out the door You know as we talked earlier these are people that are passionate about it Mm-hmm But moving beyond what happens with employees again we're back to how do you value [00:10:00] people You know do you really care about people and and not just employees Well customers are gonna start to look at that and say well you don't value what people bring to you so why should I shop at your stores And Target saw that they had a a big backlash when they started to retreat on on their diversity initiatives uh I think a number of lawsuits have have come about from it but I know that they had a lot of protests at at many of their stores and they saw a decline in sales so it hit the bottom line The other thing you have to be concerned about is investors You know especially if if you're you know if you're a small company uh maybe you don't you know you don't have that same issue But for a larger company that that's publicly traded investors are gonna start to say why why should I put my money in your organization And Costco had a had a situation a few months back that's almost the opposite of Target There was some activists that [00:11:00] wanted that went to the board and said You've gotta scale back your DEI activities and the board said no And they got pushback and they would not do it And what happened Their sales and revenue went up o over over the same period for another year So you know PE people are watching this you know and investors are looking at it customers are looking at it So it goes well you know and and it also gets you back to engagement because it may not be employee engagement but how are you engaging your customers How are you engaging the community that's around you If if you're really not valuing people Because your customers are people Your investors are people Just as your employees are people

Barbara: I was just gonna say Chris one of the things that we talk a lot about is that organizations are smart enough to finally I think realize they cannot do their jobs They cannot open their doors they cannot uh be a a [00:12:00] company without qualified employees And it's just that simple I mean how many times do I say that in a day Cornelia It's just that simple If you don't have the right people It doesn't matter what you what you do And so having the right people that's where it all starts And then how do you treat them How do you bring them into your organization How do you how do you maximize their abilities to do their jobs and make the contributions that they can make to the organization

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I love it Yeah it very strong argument that you're making here And you know when I hear this this is the way I look at it Like for me DEI is like a like this is a good thing right Uh but there were some critical aspects of it that uh you know frankly right now plain language We're having to to justify some stuff that was really healthy for companies right Uh and and and the and people are having to kind of d dig into it to to explain Um and so what I you know what I hear in this argument is something that if we were talking to the [00:13:00] CFO right Or or or somebody that's like how do we put dollar To this as a business person when you say things like turnover and giving your your your employees over to the competition losing resources because you're not willing to have this discussion because you've taken these small aspects of something and thrown it out I love this reframe of the topic and saying Nope we can't do that We have to go back and look at it from a bigger picture And what are we really losing by doing that Uh the company that you used as an example that Said Hey we're gonna keep our DEI policies That shouldn't be a radical act Right And yet we're we are at a point where we're having to go back and and say that So but I love how this is really breaking it into the concepts that somebody like A CFO would look at and say wait maybe we do need to to let's talk about let's pivot a little bit and talk about engagement What are some of the most common misconceptions that leaders have about engagement Where do organizations tend to get [00:14:00] it wrong

Barbara: I think they get it wrong uh from the from the very beginning in in most cases where they just don't fix seal Where their employees add value to the organization And so then the then the organization and I I can pick on the CFOs for a second cause they're the ones that usually are visible and they're saying no they don't want to spend money on employee development Well you know what a big mistake that is Employees want and they need to be developed And that's cost That costs money And so if you don't develop your employees again Cornelia already gave you a good response to if you don't if you don't develop your employees they leave They're not gonna stay especially employees today in the in the younger generations they don't hang around to see what you're going to do for them maybe in a couple of years They want it and they want it now [00:15:00] And so development is a huge part of Of what an employer needs to do and especially the C the CFO needs to give you some dollars to spend uh to make sure that you're and it doesn't have to be lots and lots of money There's lots of ways to give people development uh and things like recognition That I think is another one that we talk a lot about It's a really important thing to recognize your employees And of course the most important way for recognizing employees is to just say thank you And does that cost any money Nope it doesn't

Cornelia Gamlem: You know

The other the other thing around development as pointed there's a lot of A lot of ways you can do it without spending a lot of money but if you put some resources in developing your employees and they're allowed to advance in the organization a lot easier to move somebody internal into a new slot than especially the higher up you [00:16:00] go in the organization than it is to recruit from the outside And and I I think a lot of times they miss that point because you are looking at the here and now and you're not looking at Even two years down the road you know what kind of a contribution can they be ma making if they've been able to develop some new skills and competencies along the way

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES:  you know this idea of development uh the the simple fact that if people don't feel engaged or that they're Growth and development is being addressed they'll just leave So so again for you know the CFO when we think dollar signs um you mentioned it doesn't take a lot you know I think of a recent uh I have an example where there was an employee who had been there many years she got a certification the company was trying to increase their LinkedIn presence actually and they put on LinkedIn congratulation this person for getting your certification And the CFO or the C um the CEO of the company said Congratulations [00:17:00] to that person And she had not talked to the CEO like ever and it was like one of the happiest moments for her to see that And it literally

Cornelia Gamlem: Oh

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: didn't cost them a dime other than just putting it out there So I love that

Cornelia Gamlem: Yeah

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I love that So this makes a lot of sense to me How do you define a fully engaged employee What does that look like in practice not just theory

Cornelia Gamlem: I would say I mean first of all it's somebody that knows that they can bring an idea forward They're gonna be listened to You know what whether the organization has the resources to act on the idea or not And even if this isn't the right time say to implement whatever they're suggesting they they're gonna feel like okay they gave me good feedback on that Um I know I can bring other ideas forward so I'm I'm I'm gonna keep working and giving this organization my [00:18:00] best And I think that that's really where where engagement gets down to pe people that feel committed they feel That they want to do everything they can to help the organization to succeed they don't look to it and say well you know that that's the manager or the director's job It's like I wanna do my part And it may just be a small part but if you have a whole team of people that are engaged and are all do it doing their best to bring their part along Um just think how dynamic that can be you know not just for the team but for the organization as well I

Barbara: There's a a kind of a simple way to look at uh the the whole idea of engagement that I I think of uh and that is you wanna make connections Your employee you wanna you you want your employees to connect with the work that they do With their manager to connect with their manager to connect with their coworkers and to connect with the outcomes [00:19:00] that the company is looking for What does success look like for that organization And if you can engage your employees on those those four things and get them excited about the work that they're doing You'll have an engaged employee You may not have an ENG engaged workforce because sometimes it doesn't translate that everybody feels the same level of engagement But we think that there are ways that you can maximize to the level that which you can for your organization to make sure that people feel connected and engaged And I'll I'll use another uh adjective here and that is excited You want people to feel a level of excitement that and a pride that they work for a really great organization and that they're enjoying the work that they're doing Uh we talk a lot about in the work that we do we talk about the word fun And fun doesn't usually equate from for many managers It doesn't equate to well [00:20:00] this is a business Of course we don't have fun here This is work well If people are having a little bit of fun along the way it's amazing what can happen to engagement uh if they're enjoying the work that they're doing and they feel committed

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: You know Cornelia started with the idea of of the employee you know feeling comfortable sharing their thoughts and their ideas And I

Barbara: Mm-hmm

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: like a bad lead or somebody who's just a bully who shoots people down You don't feel like you can bring this good idea to the table right So the idea of people being engaged and at that at that very basic level giving you their best work you have some of the strongest resources available right there in the company And you also Cornelia also made the point that you know it's much easier to to put somebody existing into a different role than it is to go out and start from scratch and find somebody from outside So all of this stuff builds on top of it Uh Barbara mentioned two words excited and fun [00:21:00] So you know and I'm thinking back to the the the bully leader or the uh CFO or somebody who's not you know that's not necessarily the first thing that they think about But how that pays in dividends with getting your employees engaged and how you can literally say crowdsource or or employee source Right Some of your best resources right there internally in house So I love that In your view what role does leadership play in driving or destroying engagement Are there simple actions managers can take today to improve team connection

Cornelia Gamlem: Start with listening and that that yeah I mean we we talk a lot about listening to people and Barbara always makes the point and and I've I I've echoed It over and over again school we're taught a lot about how to write you know good business writing We're taught you know how to make presentations how to give speeches We're we're never taught [00:22:00] anything about how to be a good listener so many people Don't know how to do that You know they're they think listening is oh I'm I'm in this meeting and they're making notes cause this is what I wanna say next And they haven't heard anything that anybody else has said in in the meeting

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I love that idea Start with listening That's a that's a huge one there Um and it is one of those things that kind of gets lost left off of the list of skills right Teach you how to write a good email good business letter But uh you you think back to did we learn that in school And so super important as leaders to know that that's that is uh one of the very first things that you can do uh to be connected to the team now you you've consulted with organizations of all different sizes Can you share an example of a company that's turned around engagement and what lessons others can take from it

Barbara: Oh that's a tough one

Cornelia Gamlem: [00:23:00] Trying to think back on on so many of them I I know there was one company that I worked with that They had a leader who in in the middle of a a transition um they they had done an acquisition of of a new company and he was making a point of going you know when he go visit this new site learning everybody's name And and he he had a methodology that he did that by So when he went out there and he would walk around and you know see people working and you know he didn't just confine himself To the you know to the C-suite to the leadership that that was in this new company He walked around and talked to everybody and I think that went a long way in the whole transition process because people you know they suddenly felt like We're not being taken over we're we're being brought in to to a new organization And you know he he really talked to his team at at the corporate office about you know [00:24:00] listening to them you know bringing in some of their ideas and trying to incorporate them into you know different parts of the organization And and I think I think that went a long way for their success I mean he he was very very respected

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I think that's a great example I I think the larger these enterprise uh size companies the larger that the companies just keep getting bigger and bigger The idea of management by walking around uh speaking individually and

Barbara: Still works

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: Super duper uh strong and and good examples there we are bumping towards the end of the show We've got just about four minutes Let's see I want to ask y'all if a leader is listening right now and realizes their team might be disengaged what's the very first step you'd recommend they take

Barbara: Well listening Listening would be the first thing I would do Cornell you just already talked about About that I would make sure that you know people talk about [00:25:00] doing a listening tour or uh just asking people uh how are things going Uh some one-on-one kind of thing Try to get to where where it is that where where are you falling short But listening would be the the most important piece of it And the second part I I think would be Uh if if you knew if you know your organization or some people are not performing or not engaged I would look to the coaching model Uh if you have coaches or you can get coaches uh that one-on-one where you can sit down with an employee and talk about what it is That they need in order to do their job and get them excited about what it is how they can contribute uh that one-on-one And that goes back to what Cornelia just said about the example that she gave There's something quite magical about talking to a human being in our world Uh we all know that we've got AI ahead of us or that we're in the middle of it or [00:26:00] whatever Uh But we really I I really do believe that being able to communicate one-on-one makes a huge huge difference If you can

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: That's that's a great answer there You started with listening and then we also uh talked about coaching the idea of individual one-on-one human interaction Right As so we get further down this this rabbit hole with with AI and everything it's that human interaction's gonna be very very important there Um so we we are literally right here at the end of the show Cornelia Barbara what have I forgot to ask you that you'd like to share with listeners today

Cornelia Gamlem: Know how precious your employees are and and you know especially as we're walking into this age of ai I think we're gonna start to see a lot of thoughts uh around People are indispensable are dispensable they're interchangeable and you cannot have an [00:27:00] organization that's running on robots and artificial intelligence

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: Barbara closing thoughts as we end here

Barbara: I would echo Cornel's comment about uh it it's caring caring for your employees letting them know that they really do matter and that they they are human beings They're not just your employees They are human beings with thoughts and and ideas and Uh lives and acknowledging that they they are human beings and that that you trust them and you give them trust right back

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: What a great thought to leave today on Now for listeners who want to get a copy of the ebook it's

Barbara: I

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: through Amazon What is the title of the ebook for them to find it

Cornelia Gamlem: Essentials of employee engagement

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: Essentials of employee engagement and I know while they're there they'll see other books that you've published right As as they go through [00:28:00] Amazon Is there a website if people wanna get in contact with you to to talk more about this how would they go about doing that

Cornelia Gamlem: Yeah we do have a website big book of hr.com Both Barbara and I are also on LinkedIn and and we're both very active on LinkedIn That's what we do the majority of our social media so you know either through the website or directly through LinkedIn where we we love to meet new people You know we love to engage with with you know listeners of other shows as well so

Christopher Hensley RICP, CES: I love it We'll go find Barbara and Cornelia out on LinkedIn get a copy of the ebook through Amazon Thank you so much for being on the show today

Barbara: Thank you Chris